Black Stories/08: Vinny Frye

Justin James Lopez:
Hey, y’all welcome to Amazon’s Black stories podcast, where we highlight the stories of Black designers, researchers, and creatives from all around the world. I’m your host, Justin James Lopez. And today I’m joined by Vinny Frye, where we talk about code switching and the important role that it plays in the success of people of color and navigating corporate environments, as well as how being a product of your environment doesn’t always have to be a bad thing. Now let’s hear her story.

So Vinny, thanks for joining us today on the podcast. For the listeners here, you are currently at Amazon, right? You’re now a manager, right? You’re managing a team, but tell us a little bit more about what you do at Amazon.

Vinny Frye:
There’s always like the official answer, which is like you hire, lead, develop and help stakeholders and partners deliver results and launch products and services. And then there’s the reality, which is like you herd cats and you run around and you try to like connect dots and do scrappy reviews and write documents on what your point of view is, which I feel like is most of what I do, which is taking a lot of information, for a point of view and try to help my team be successful. I think that’s what my entire job is or not my entire, maybe half. And then the other half is exposing as much as I can to my team so that they understand how things work and how they can be successful and build and coach them in the areas where there might be some opportunities.

Justin James Lopez:
And you recently moved into management. Right before that, were you leading the team before, like unofficially or were you just kind of moving into this brave new world, if you will, of now leading others?

Vinny Frye:
It’s funny because like at Amazon we do, well, I don’t know if all teams do this, but within books we have like a lead role. So I had the lead role a year prior to like my UX manager role. And with the lead role, you get a certain amount of direct reports that become like a smaller team. So I did that for about a year prior to taking on this. Part of being a designer, you’re always sort of leading unofficially. There’s always some dotted line. If your team is larger than one, there’s multiple of you, which these days might not happen often.

Justin James Lopez:
Yeah. When you think about your pathway to getting into design, like where would you place your origin point in saying like, this is kind of what I want to do. Like when you think of your life, maybe like when you think of like a young Vinny, right? Like where was it that said this clicked for me, because I hear so many different versions of this where people like had it and then they lost it and they came back or they decided to go down a different path and come back. Was it always design? Let’s talk about that story.

Vinny Frye:
I don’t know how typical my path is, but I think that I have different points. So the point of art happened. So just for context, like I have like a family that didn’t always like walk on the right side of the law. I had a grandfather who was legitimately a gangster and like rolled with the Italian mob. So that kind of went down into the family as being acceptable. So there was a point in my life where my grandmother gained custody of me and I was pretty distraught about being separated from my parents and I decided to stop talking and they took me to a therapist who happened to be an art therapist. I think I was around six years old and I knew what she was trying to do like, she was trying to open up communication lines and get me to share.

And I remember telling her like you’re a joke and to be candid, you’re like a middle class white person who has no idea what my world looks like, so why am I sitting here? That was the kind of six year old I was. And I was like, you don’t understand the struggle. And then she said, help me understand. And she gave me pencil and paper. And instead of writing words, I started to draw pictures. And I think like that was the beginning of like, oh, this art thing is more than just a way for like my friends and family to be like, oh, Vinny’s cool. It was like a way to express myself. So we never really built a rapport, me and this therapist, but I kept drawing. And I think like that drawing helped me get like the attention of people in school. So I started to win contests, but I was also had like an academic side.

So originally like since the age of five, I wanted to be a lawyer and I specifically wanted to be a medical claims lawyer. And there is like a piece of construction paper that my grandma had where I listed out my life. Like, I’m going to go to school, I’m going to get a master’s, I’m get a doctorate. I’m going to then go off and be a medical claims lawyer and help people fighting for social security and their rights because we’re at a disadvantage. Like I was like, I’m be a soldier, half Black Panther. Like the art thing and winning the awards, and I caught the attention. In the third grade is when I started to talk, when I went into the computer science class. And it was during a time where we were pivoting from like PCs and Apple was doing really bad. And they did that program where they were going to give a lot of public schools Apple computers. And we learned the Lego Language, I think it was. And we played a lot of Oregon Trail. And he somehow-

Justin James Lopez:
A lot of listeners, you lost them at Oregon Trail, right there. Go ahead.

Vinny Frye:
I know. Oregon Trail, man, it’s on my phone, by the way. Like I’m still playing Oregon Trail serious. But he kind of saw something, I guess in my skills and I joined his computer software club after school and there was another counselor. They had conspired somehow. And then he approached me one day in the hallway and he said, you know what, there’s this thing called communication art. And if you do like your software, sort of like acumen, he used a different word and you mix that with your art skills, because you’re winning these like smaller contests, you can make a career out of this and you can get out of this place, because that has always been my goal. Like I’m a hustler by blood, but I don’t want to do what they do. I want to make it out legitimately. And I spent weekends in a library figuring out what communication art was, wrote that on my piece of construction paper, added it to the plan and been going ever since.

Justin James Lopez:
I love that, man. I think that touches to such a specific cohort of people that are ignored in so many ways because of the backgrounds and certain manifestations of things. Right. When you think, I grew up in similar circumstances, surrounded by a lot of family members, a lot of people that were just kind of doing what they needed to do to survive is how I like to describe it. And I remember having a conversation where someone mentioned, like the quote of like being a product of your environment and how I’m somehow an anomaly. And I was like, no, I’m not, I’m still a product of my environment. It’s just that I saw certain things and I chose to go. I learned a certain lesson from it and I manifested it differently. It doesn’t change the fact that all of these things are still a part of who I am. And I love like hearing that because I think it’s really important to take all of the things that are who you are. Right. And really use that to your net benefit. What I’m really interested in is what happened to the lawyer dream?

Vinny Frye:
It stayed. So I had started to get into other things in high school, there’s a group called Future Business Leaders of America. It’s sort of this idea that I have a point of view I’m going to debate and argue it. I’m going to make sure that I have data to support my point of view, didn’t change. And that fight for justice part didn’t change. Like I can’t, I can’t help it. Like, it’s, you ever have that thing where you’re talking to someone or you’re in a meeting or something and you know that you’re about to say something confrontational or it’s just not going to sit well and it feels like you’re going to vomit and there’s nothing you can do, but like open your mouth and it comes out.

It comes out with such fierce that people in the room just kind of goes silent and you’re just like, oh, I just killed the vibe. Yep. So, I still have my lawyer kill the vibe kind of thing and try to keep it in check. And when you mirror that with my Philly attitude and on top of that hustler mentality, sometimes it doesn’t play well for me. And sometimes it does.

Justin James Lopez:
Let’s talk code switching. How has that manifested as a strength or weakness for you? And I bring it up because I actually recently had a conversation with my friend, a good friend of mine from long, really, really long ago. And they mentioned, well, Justin, you’ve been code switching so long that this is just how you talk now. And like, I was like, I don’t know if I should be offended by that, or I should be impressed that I’ve been manifested this skill. But I wonder how does that manifest in your life? Like when you think of the concept of that kind of direct Northeastern culture growing up in the Philadelphia area, and then now are you still in on the east coast or are you in Seattle?

Vinny Frye:
Yeah. I moved to the west coast in 2002 and kind of been here ever since. And now I’m in Seattle.

Justin James Lopez:
So how does that mesh with that more, I would say more passive culture that you find on the west coast, specifically the Pacific Northwest?

Vinny Frye:
Ah, man, it’s rough and it doesn’t mesh. And I don’t know if I’ve been as successful with code switching as others. My perspective around it is just change, I feel like it changes daily. But like in Philly, people are opportunist and part of the code switching is not just like how I speak, but how I relate to the rest of the world and the biases that come with me. So like when I’m in Philly, I recognize that their opportunist. They’re looking for an in, in what I’m saying, I’m reading the body language and I’m preparing myself to be able to like protect myself and go into survival mode. When I’m in Pacific Northwest, there is like a passive aggressiveness around survival, but then they like coded in this idea that like they’re thriving and it’s just not, it’s exhausting.

And what I find happens is, I try to play the game and I try to frame things the way that I know will be well received. And then I get tired and that’s when Philly comes out and not specifically any Philly, like North Philly, cause I was born and raised off of 22nd Lehigh, which is a very sort of jungle kind of environment where there is a lot of survival sort of mentality, which creates that opportunistic view that people have in the world there. So I think transitioning here, my first transition was coming, my first flight ever was going to school in CCA. And I had to be told by a friend like, whoa, you’re just coming off too strong. Not everyone is trying to hurt you. And then when I get to Pacific Northwest, I was told, well, you have to read between the lines.

The intent of the comment is in between the lines. And that’s the idea around being passive aggressive. And I just, I still don’t get it. To the point of like, when someone says, oh, we should hang out. I’m like, oh, okay, you want to, you actually want to hang out. No, that’s just like a period to the sentence. And I just don’t understand.

Justin James Lopez:
And I’m sorry, I get it.

Vinny Frye:
I still get caught up in there.

Justin James Lopez:
I still get that Seattle freeze that you feel here. So I want to bring this back to kind of your growth as a designer, as a creative professional. How has that impacted your growth? Or maybe even the work that you’ve done in this space. Has that your progress at all?

Vinny Frye:
It did. In the beginning, I had a hard time getting a foot in and I had to do like a technique. I read a book called Neural Mirroring and I had to start doing neural mirroring. There was a point in my life where I felt like nobody would hire me. So coming from one of the more prestigious design schools and now I’m chop liver. I don’t matter. And then I’m seeing people with portfolios and I’m going, you got hired for that? Like that was good? And then realizing I had to backwards engineer job descriptions, backwards engineer interviews, and try to read between the lines and where the code switching actually happens more.

And then once I was able to get my foot in the door and earn trust, then I relax a bit. And then that’s when I’m seeing as a value and I can see my career progress. But I don’t know if what I’m seeing is making sense, but this I had to learn when to code switch to make people feel comfortable and then when to switch back so I could be more authentic and add the value that they were actually hiring me for and not realizing that’s what they needed.

Justin James Lopez:
Wow. That’s heavy.

Vinny Frye:
Sorry.

Justin James Lopez:
We’re going to have to... No, no, no. I’m saying we’re going to have to go back and re-listen to that over and over so that can hit a little bit harder because I think that there’s this battle that’s kind of going inside and I feel this as well, right. That idea that this is what you want to see, but that’s not what you need. Right. And then it kind of almost rips you apart to give both of those worlds to people. But apparently according to my friends, I’ve just mastered it. Right. It is a difficult topic. And I think the reason why I wanted to dive into it specifically was, I mean, some of the statements around just kind of growing up in that Northeast and I really do connect with growing up in the same area that north, right outside of Philly actually, and moving to different spaces where the world is very different.

And one of the biggest spaces, which just corporate America period, right. We talk about geographic spaces like the South and the Northeast and the Pacific Northwest and the West Coast. But we don’t talk about just the idea of corporate America, as much as we do it. As its own almost semi geographic space that really has its own codes, its own little subtle cues that you need to understand. How hard was it to learn those cues? And you might have not even gotten there yet, but in order for you to feel comfortable in the skin that you’re in, in the position that you’re in?

Vinny Frye:
Yeah. That one, that one’s a tough one because I still don’t feel comfortable. I think that what happens is with those cues and the code switching is more imposter syndrome happens sometimes. And I think once I realized the language and the vernacular of corporate America, okay, I got angry. Like I was like this is bull. Like why do people have to play these games? This is why there’s a glass ceiling. This is why the door is like this. This is why when I get in, I’m going to leave the door cracked. So that I used to say, so all my homies could make it through the back door because that’s seems like it’s going to be necessary. One of us is going to have to come through the front and then prop open the back. And I was like, I’m going to try to do that.

And I realized that it’s because of the vernacular, because of corporate culture. And it’s because of all of the weird catty in between reading that takes a specific skill. And not that everyone can’t learn it. There are some people, like my husband, who don’t want to. Doesn’t feel like that’s worth their time and they should have to. That’s definitely gotten in his way, along with everything else. And then there’s people like me, maybe you, who decided that it was necessary evil.

Justin James Lopez:
Yeah. When you mentioned this idea of kind of cracking the door, how have you, or have you been able to do that so far?

Vinny Frye:
I’ve been trying so hard. I think the new program that they’re doing at Amazon to help with some of the diversity inclusion and equity work has made it more possible. I think some of the mentorship stuff that I’ve been doing has made it possible, but I don’t find that people reach out. I think in our community, there’s a sense of the people that we want to talk to and maybe people don’t want to talk to other senior UX designers that’s been doing it for a while or other UX managers that’s been doing it for a while. It seems like I don’t know who they’re going to talk to. Like, I don’t know if they’re looking for directors or VPs or what, or they’re just scared to talk to anyone, but I offer to anyone that’s always interested.

And I’ll say that very few people take me up on that offer. I don’t know if they don’t believe me. So I don’t, I think this is one of the things that I’m trying to do. I’m also trying to put myself out there more often so that I at least seem approachable. There was something that happened back in high school that kind of made me shy away about being in the spotlight. I had organized a protest and there was a walkout and I was in the building trying to make sure that everybody who wanted to participate was out and they knew where they needed to go stand and line up. And so I’m in the back of the crowd and basically something jumped off on that corner. And one of the people participating wound up being attacked and beat by a police.

And then a man who tried to intervene was also attacked and beat. And that, I kind of took that on like, okay, this is something that I said, something I started, something that I organized and it ended in this way. I later learned that the principal was pretty upset with me and had called the police as an action to stop it. Not realizing that police and protests and the black community don’t quite work, and it didn’t end well. So it took me a long time to sort of shed that weight and that trauma, that I did this to her and I impacted her life pretty long term, because she had some extensive injuries. So I’m now decided I can’t take that on. I can’t shut down from those that need help and that I still have to be a voice.

Justin James Lopez:
That’s beautiful. I think circling back that, it’s difficult to not attach yourself to those things, those outcomes when you care. Right. And that’s almost like the gift and the curse of empathy, right. Care enough and it’s hard to disassociate what outcomes come from that. But when it comes to where you are now and moving back to the space where you want to start to really help and broaden out, where do you see yourself as far as helping in that space in the coming years? Like say the next five, 10 years. Because now you’re now you’re in management, you’ll probably be a director at some point. So, what does that, what does that look like for you?

Vinny Frye:
I don’t know. I’m still figuring it out. I’m being honest with the listeners. When I wrote that piece of paper, the construction paper, and I made this list, I manifested destiny and I hit all the targets and I had a point in my life where I was like, what am I supposed to do next? And then not until recently I said, maybe I’ll go into thinking about people management, because I was going to stay on the IC track and go into principal and see if I could just mentor and grow from there and then pivot out of corporate America into entrepreneurship. Because I had started it a little bit and then shied away from that and went into corporate America. So I’m still kind of writing the book as the pages are turning. I don’t know.

Justin James Lopez:
No. I mean, it’s still exciting, right? I had a guest on here where we kind of dived into that idea where it’s like, we’re all really making it up anyway. None of us have, we might have a plan, but the reality is nobody really knows how it’s going to really pan out. We have hopes and dreams about that’s going to work, but we don’t actually know. So I think that’s probably one of the most honest answers that you can really provide. Is that idea of, I’m still writing it. I don’t know. I have thoughts, but even now you mentioned this was a recent pivot, right. Before a couple months ago, you weren’t even sure about people management. You kind of wanted to kind of build in that one space.

I think that’s really a tribute to you circling back and really wanting to help others, leading others and bringing back to that because I’m still in that space where I’m like, I can’t manage anyone. I’m just, I’m doing my own thing and I want to build my own thing, but I think it’s a selfless thing to shift over into people management in that space because you’re getting back into that, the roots of really caring for the impact that you provide for other people, which is a beautiful thing. So with all the things that you know now, all of the experiences that you’ve gathered, right, both professionally and personally and you want to look back and give advice to the next generation that’s looking to jump into corporate America to design into the creative fields. What do you have for them? What would be the top lessons that you say, Hey, from a raw perspective, this is what you really need to expect?

Vinny Frye:
I think like the things is that if I could do it over again, I think I would’ve stepped back and looked at what I really cared about and made sure that I listed that. Because one of the things that happens is when you are hungry, whether that’s actually hungry or theoretically, it creates this mindset where you’re like, I just need a job. What do you want to do? A job. You know, it’s kind of like the answer that you get. And I should have worked a little bit harder to separate myself from the mind state of, I have these bills to pay. I have these responsibilities. They have opportunities.

I needed to go back and make sure that my passion was connected because I’ve noticed that anywhere where my passion is truly connected, the things that are required for corporate America right now, until things change like code switching, the neural mirroring so that they can feel comfortable. The person that’s hiring you can feel comfortable that you can deliver or the team or whatever that is that requirement to earn that trust. That is more exhausting when you are pulling at fumes. And the thing that helps propel, usually that is passion, so I think that is the key thing. I’m trying to think about other things that I would give. Maybe is to pay a lot more attention upfront about how corporate America functions. Try to read between the lines on these job descriptions in these companies. Even if you’re not in the market, because it tells you, there are things that they’re putting in there that tells you about their culture and what they care about outside of the jargon that they put in the outside world, through like PR and things like that.

Justin James Lopez:
Yeah. It’s hard to get a realistic job preview now, right. Because everyone is just putting out these very generic job descriptions and then every now and then you catch these gems, like wait, what was that? Where did, what was that in there? I think that’s really a good piece there. I think when you think of the next generation, I spoke to Mo Woods recently and he mentioned like, it’s really about continuing the design, right? His statement was life is design and everything that’s in life is by design. So you have to think about the good, the bad, the ugly and how that’s all been designed by someone for and against others. So, if we want to change the way things are working, whether that’s what we’re talking about with this code switching, why is that necessary?

Why can’t... Because it’s one code is normalized, which is a form of oppression, right? It’s like the concept of code switching is the fact that one code was normalized and the other ones are like, no, you got, you have to, you have to switch over to this side. So, if we want to work on those things, then that’s by design too. Then we have to continue to redesign and iterate on those designs and it takes time and it’s difficult, right? That’s something that our communities are tired of hearing is just, it’s going to take a little bit more time.

Vinny Frye:
That’s why I was like giving the tips about the things to do, because I don’t know if I feel like so as a whole community it’s going to take time. But the change on an individual level might not have to take time. But if your passion is connected to what you want to do, you might not feel like work. So there’s a difference between like the time and the effort. It’s complex and it’s just like, on my portfolio site, one of the things that I guess I could leave listeners with is I use the terminology design is the strategy. So, I think it’d be loop back to some of the things I said about the list that I had, of all the things I wanted to accomplish and goals like that.

The strategy of how I live my life is designed. And I definitely agree with Mo that everything in this world is by design. You can’t have anything that’s systemic that’s not designed. So, if they could design the box, how can you design or design the release of the lid? How can you design the wrapper? Like the box doesn’t have to look the way they want the box to look because if it did, I wouldn’t be sitting here. I was supposed to be in jail. I supposed to be strung out on something. I was not supposed to be sitting here.

Justin James Lopez:
Yeah. And that’s a great, that’s a great walk off home run there. That’s the reality. We got to redesign the way the system works at an individual level. Stop trying to change the world all the time with every movement, right. With every decision you don’t have to change the whole world. I love that.

Vinny Frye:
It’s a little bit more approachable.

Justin James Lopez:
It is. It’s a little bit more approachable, but I think that’s a, it’s a good, it’s a gem. It’s a, you dropped a couple of gems here. I got to go back and re-listen, but thank you again for joining us and for the honesty and the vulnerability. I think that’s the gift and I’m happy that you gave that to me and the listeners here.

Vinny Frye:
My pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.