Black Stories/26: Bianca Stacey

Bianca Stacey:
I find that most of the things that I’m afraid of are just things that I’ve internalized over time. So they’re not based in anything real. They’re all just me internalizing and overthinking things. And then when you find that you’re doing that, that you can manage it better, you can check yourself. Writing has really, really helped me. It’s really helped me sort of take myself out of work mode and into, okay, this is my recharge mode. This is my personal space. No one sees a space. This is a safe space.

Justin James Lopez:
Hey everyone, welcome to another episode of Amazon’s Black Stories where we highlight the stories of black designers, researchers, and creative minds from all around the world. I’m your host, Justin James Lopez, and today I’m joined by Bianca Stacey, where we highlight how we can overcome adversity by finding our community and exploring our passions. Let’s hear her story.

All right, well, thank you again for joining me on this episode, Bianca. I wanted to start by giving you an opportunity to introduce yourself to the audience.

Bianca Stacey:
So I’m Bianca Stacey. I work for Amazon. And I’ve worked for Amazon close to seven years. This coming January will be my seven-year anniversary.

Justin James Lopez:
Yeah, I’m actually glad we were able to get this episode in when we did, because I’m actually headed out on leave for a bit. I’m going to be headed out to Japan, which if you’ve never been, it’s an amazing country and I highly recommend.

Bianca Stacey:
Yeah, Japan, it’s so beautiful. The culture is extremely preserved. So you go there and they still have their traditions. But it’s also very progressive and the fashion is great and food is amazing, and you just see things that you don’t see here. And actually, I used to live in Japan as a kid.

Justin James Lopez:
Oh, so you know more than me. I’m giving you recommendations and you’re like, well, I kind of lived there before. So you’ve lived there, so talk to me about this?

Bianca Stacey:
Yeah, my father was a Marine for close to 30 years, and we were stationed everywhere.

Justin James Lopez:
Oh, nice.

Bianca Stacey:
Mostly in Asia. Yeah, so Japan was about four and a half years of my childhood. We were in Okinawa, Japan, which is a beautiful island, and I went to Kadena Air Force Base as a kid, just really immersed myself in the culture. I have a love for anime and Japanese films, that’s where I get that from. But it was interesting because also in Japan you don’t see a lot of Black people.

Justin James Lopez:
Yeah, I was going to ask that.

Bianca Stacey:
Right. So I am very used to being the only one, which has sort of been a theme that’s appeared in quite a bit. But I embraced it and I was a kid, so everything was just new for me and it was great. And just meeting friends that were Japanese that didn’t speak English, that was amazing. Yeah, I think that was pretty much the highlight of my childhood is living in Okinawa, going to Tokyo on the weekends with my parents. That’s how I was introduced to sushi. I loved video games. I was introduced to all the video games as a kid because it would come out there first before it would hit the States. Yeah.

Justin James Lopez:
So do you speak Japanese?

Bianca Stacey:
That’s always a question people ask me. I do not.

Justin James Lopez:
I feel like that’s a huge missed opportunity there.

Bianca Stacey:
It is. It is. I mean, I learned how to curse.

Justin James Lopez:
Yeah. So there’s that. So there’s that.

Bianca Stacey:
Right, there’s that.

Justin James Lopez:
I feel like that’s the thing that people always pick up first.

Bianca Stacey:
Right. I learned certain things, but I did not retain it when we got back to the States. And I was also in an international school, so it wasn’t like I was learning the language full time.

Justin James Lopez:
Which is fair. That is interesting because that theme, right. And it really does paint a good picture for how you as an individual, as a professional have been able to navigate your overall path as a designer. And we can talk a little bit more about that. What was it that got you interested in the design space?

Bianca Stacey:
I used to work, this is back when I lived in New York City, I worked for Microsoft very briefly. And there was a small group within Microsoft, it was an app and it was called GroupMe. And I know the founders, friends with them. I’m sure everyone of a certain age knows what GroupMe. It was a very fun environment to work in. It was a startup, it was fast-paced, a lot of different projects. I was not a designer then. I had an interest in design because I worked with a lot of developers on the team, and they would invite me to hackathons, they’d invite me to check out their work, what they were working on, all sorts of projects.

And that’s what really piqued my interest. And I decided to leave after a certain number of years and go back and do a bootcamp program for UX design. And I actually did that bootcamp program here in DC. So it really did come full circle. So I did the bootcamp program. I was cohort number two at General Assembly, and there were only 10 of us in the class. So it was great because you had the instructor’s attention and you could not fail. It just was not an option. So I went to the bootcamp and again, I had to quit my job. I had to be unemployed, go do this full time. I did that and came out of that with just a certificate in UX design and not really knowing how I was going to get a job, not having an income, just going with life, whatever it threw at me.

And then there was this opportunity to work on a project with the United States Holocaust Museum. And I did that and I did that for free so that I could get some experience in the field. And I worked for them for free for a summer in DC, was able to launch a few things on their website. And after that, a small transportation company outside of Baltimore gave me a ring because they’d seen my work and I ended up working for them for about a year. So that was the segue into UX design. I pivoted from the transportation company and worked at Under Armour for a very short period of time. Under Armour is interesting. I didn’t really gel with the culture and the minute I got a call from Amazon, I was out. So that’s how I had ended up coming to Amazon because it was one of my dream companies, and I’d always want to work for Amazon or for a big tech company.

Justin James Lopez:
I actually have a really close friend that she used to be a designer at Under Armour had a similar experience. So that’s interesting. And you’ve been at Amazon for what, seven years? How was that?

Bianca Stacey:
It’s been fun. It’s been interesting. I’ve learned a lot. I was at HQ1 for, I want to say almost four years. And the pandemic happened and I took that as an opportunity to move back with my family so I didn’t have to pay rent.

Justin James Lopez:
Nice.

Bianca Stacey:
So I lived a few years, which was great, and it was great to be around my family and have that support, especially during that time. And I remember my then manager noticing that every video call I had palm trees in the back of my videos. And so finally he said, “You look like you’re really having a good life over there. You’ve got the palm trees in the back, it’s always sunny.” Then I said, “Oh, you mean the screensaver?” He’s like, “Come on.” And so he had realized, and I had to fess up. I told him that I had moved away from Seattle during the pandemic. He had asked me then to pick a location that Amazon had a headquarters in, and it was either go back to Seattle, go to DC, or I think Austin was on the table. And I picked DC because I really wanted that feeling of being in a diverse place with a lot of Black professionals. And I don’t know, I’d never lived here.,So I picked Washington, DC.

Justin James Lopez:
So you were in Seattle, you said HQ1, you were in Seattle originally, moved away, and then you picked DC. So when you mentioned you wanted to live in a place that had more diversity, are you saying that you didn’t really find that in the Seattle area?

Bianca Stacey:
I didn’t find as big of a community in Seattle. I felt like in Seattle you really had to go seek it out. You had to make a lot of effort to find out just where the Black professionals were hanging out, different places in the city to vibe out on the weekends. So it wasn’t as easy to find as it is in DC. DC you’re just in it all the time. But Seattle, you really had to make that effort to find your people.

Justin James Lopez:
I agree with that. I moved here, I’m actually from the East Coast, so I’m right outside of the Philadelphia area and moved to Seattle for Amazon years ago. And yeah, I agree with that in general. And being an introvert doesn’t help. So I’ll say-

Bianca Stacey:
Seattle is great for introverts, I think. Right?

Justin James Lopez:
... being an introvert and trying to find people, especially in diverse communities, doesn’t help. On top of that, being from the East Coast means that we have more of a direct communication style, which does not mesh well with the passive aggression that you find here. No, you know what? I love Seattle. I feel like I got to say that after I say all of those things.

Bianca Stacey:
I’m like, do you?

Justin James Lopez:
But do you though? I want to backtrack. So when you joined Amazon, I’m wondering, because you’re mentioning that lack of diversity in the physical space of Seattle or HQ1. When you say HQ1 in Seattle, were you talking about just the geography or were you talking about the actual workplace as well with that lack of diversity?

Bianca Stacey:
Yeah, also the workplace. My first team at Amazon, I think I was the only Black person on that team for a solid two and a half, almost three years.

Justin James Lopez:
Wow, okay.

Bianca Stacey:
And I was the only female Black person, so it wasn’t hard to be in that environment because I’m a pretty open person. I love working with developers. I love the tech space. But when you came to the table in those meetings, there was no one who looked like me. And having the courage to speak up, having the courage to lean into those conversations and be heard was difficult for me at first. I would sit back and I would take a lot of notes and I’d observe, but I really wouldn’t speak up that much. And I went probably for my first year at Amazon operating this.

Second year around, I had a new manager and she was great, and she wasn’t Black, but she was very, very supportive of my ideas. She gave life to a lot of them. She was very supportive of my opinions and my thoughts. And we formed a really good relationship and she really put a lot of faith in me that I would find my voice on the team and I did under her. So that was a period where I really felt like I was thriving.

That was also a time where I was pivoting into the mobile app design space. Previously I was just sort of a UX design generalist. I really didn’t have a focus. But on that team, I had the opportunity to solely redesign an app for Amazon, for an Amazon subsidiary. And that really pivoted my career here and really solidified me as, okay, this is my specialty. I am a mobile app designer. And I love working in that space. It’s challenging at the same time, it’s rewarding. All the constraints that you have in the mobile space really force you to be creative. And I loved that. And I sort of blossomed during those years at Amazon.

And then we did get a Black VP female that came along. She was great, but she didn’t stay long. So I’d always had this sort of, I want some Black teammates so I can just feel like this team is diverse and I can feel like my opinion is heard and I can feel like I’m a part of something. But any Black teammate that came along just didn’t stick and she left. And then again, I was the only one. So yeah.

Justin James Lopez:
It sounded like you had a rough go at it when you started, being the only person, some people coming in then leaving, being that last person standing consistently, what does that do to you to sit in that space for so long? Just being the one person?

Bianca Stacey:
You feel isolated. You feel like you’re on an island. And there’s not many people you can go to and talk to about that, that would actually understand if they’re not someone who is Black. And so there were a lot of times where I felt extremely isolated, but I also, I loved what I was doing and I loved my work, and that’s what really kept me in those environments for as long as it did. And I also, I had a great team of developers I worked with. It was an amazing relationship, much more like a startup, much more like a small family. And I learned a tremendous amount in the first two and a half years here at Amazon. I’m still learning. I don’t ever say I’m not learning, but-

Justin James Lopez:
It’s always day one, right?

Bianca Stacey:
Yep. It’s always day one. I just grew so much within those first couple of years after finding what I really wanted to focus on, which is mobile app design, working with developers as closely as I did, launching an app, being the sole designer to redesign an entire app. And actually that’s what really got me promoted. My first promotion was launching that app. So it’s tough to be on that island, but the way I’ve had to cope with it is just being so involved in my work that I can’t think about anything else, which is probably not helpful.

Justin James Lopez:
Yeah. No, no, no. Yeah, I was totally, totally about to go there. I was like, oh, that seems like the most healthy approach to that situation. No, no, no. Joking aside, what it sounds like is you found a passion space and that passion space helped drive you past some of the things that may have not been the best parts of your situation. You mentioned that not only was it a bit of a struggle just being at Amazon in the space, being the only person, but you also obviously at some point you moved away during the pandemic, but you also struggled with that just in the Seattle area when you moved out here. So how did you balance the work-life to create that kind of stability for yourself to make sure that you were recharged to come back into your passion?

Bianca Stacey:
I do my fair share of writing, and I get outside a lot. So whenever I’m stuck and I feel like I don’t have the creative energy to do something at work or I’m just overwhelmed, I try to get outside. I walk a lot. But the writing has also helped. And a while back, a therapist told me that journaling and writing is really where you can get out some of those deep, deep thoughts. And really where it’s your own private space, no one’s going to see it. And you can say whatever you want, even the things that you shouldn’t be saying in real life, you just do it, just put it out there. And so that’s really helped me stay on track with work, with mental health, with just thinking about where I want to go in my life, writing down goals, manifesting, I believe in all that. So writing has really, really helped me. It’s really helped me take myself out of work mode and into, okay, this is my recharge mode. This is my personal space. No one sees this space. This is a safe space.

Justin James Lopez:
So creating that space. That’s really interesting because I find that to be really helpful as well, the writing component. And especially I think the depth that you went into it of saying, yeah, write the things that are kind of toxic, throw them out there.

What I find though is, joking aside, it’s kind of like that phenomenon when you’re... have you ever noticed when you’re, say you’re asleep and you’re having a dream, and in your dream, the weirdest things happen, but it seems normal in the dream. And then when you wake up and you try to describe it, like, “Oh yeah, so I was walking over this bridge of marshmallows and then...” And then people were like, “Wait, what are you talking about? How is this...” And you were like, “Yeah, I was so afraid.” Wait, that doesn’t make any sense when you start to say it out loud. And I find that kind of phenomenon happens when I just work through all of my thoughts, to your point, those deeper seated thoughts, why am I feeling about these things, about these things? Just like unfiltered writing it out. And I realized how ridiculous some of my fears, my insecurities are when you actually take them out of your head and put them into the “real world,” you realize just how they don’t fit realistically. So is that what it’s felt like for you?

Bianca Stacey:
Yeah, I find that most of the things that I’m afraid of are just things that I’ve internalized over time. So they’re not based in anything real. They’re all just me internalizing and overthinking things. And then when you find that you’re doing that, you can manage it better, you can check yourself and you can say, no one feels like that but you, so why do you feel like that? I’ve learned to be comfortable with being afraid and comfortable with not knowing the most in the room, comfortable with just being uncomfortable. I’ve learned to expect it. And if it doesn’t come where I’m uncomfortable or I’m not afraid, then I’m doing something wrong. I need to be afraid. There’s a little bit of excitement from being afraid. And some of the best things that I’ve designed have been because I didn’t know where to start. I was uncomfortable with the project. It was too ambiguous, and it ended up forming out of a fear that I wasn’t going to be able to do it. And somehow it came together.

Justin James Lopez:
Yeah. So I was actually interviewing another guest a while back, and they actually... I guess it’s tangential, but it’s similar, but it was interesting because they mentioned that their approach to their career was almost gaslighting themselves into success, which is really interesting. They were like, “Yeah, I was pretty sure I couldn’t do it. So I just convinced myself that I... Just give it a shot, why not?” And then they just kept doing that over and over and it just kept working for them. So it was really interesting. I find it really interesting the different processes that we go through as individuals to get to that end state, because fear is paralyzing to many people, even that analytical paralysis can really stunt us from getting through things. But for you, you’ve used that as a creative outlet almost, or a creative platform to bounce from. The same when you’re feeling that fear, your back is against the wall and you’re like, well, this is where I kind of create.

Bianca Stacey:
Yeah, exactly.

Justin James Lopez:
I mean, it’s an interesting approach. I’ll say it’s an interesting approach. It’s like pressure, pressure, pressure. I mean, I do well under pressure too. I find that if you give me too much open space where it’s like, “Hey, get to this whenever you can get to this,” I’m never going to get to it. But if you say, “Hey, these are all of the constraints. This has to be done by this point and everything’s going to break if this doesn’t get...” Somehow that gets me into this creative space where I can just get things done and my greatest work comes in. But I never tell my managers that, right? Because it’s like, no, no, no.

Bianca Stacey:
Yeah, don’t tell your managers.

Justin James Lopez:
But no, I find that to be really helpful because this is the true creative mind at work, right? For you, it’s kind of navigating through that fear or being afraid. And where is that fear rooted for you? Is it like a fear of failure or is-

Bianca Stacey:
I think it’s a fear of not being good enough. But what’s weird about that is that I’ve already proven that I am good enough, and I know I am, but that fear will continue to resurface from time to time. And so I’ve learned how to manage that through my work.

Someone told me, I think this was one of my bosses early on when I just started in tech, that if you weren’t meant to be at the table, you wouldn’t be at the table. And I really just have to anchor myself to that and say, if I wasn’t meant to be here, then I wouldn’t be here. If I wasn’t meant to be in these meetings, deciding if we’re going to launch something, I wouldn’t be here. If my voice wasn’t valued, this seat would not be mine. Somebody else would be sitting here. But it’s not. It’s me. I’m sitting here. So it’s a little bit of imposter syndrome of feeling, wow, I’m at this table with these people that are so smart and I’m not as smart, or I’m not as creative, or I’m not as this, but I’ve already proven that.

Justin James Lopez:
You kind of got to remind yourself of that sometimes. I do that as well. I find myself reminding myself that one little mantra that I have is, I’ll say, “You were given this life because you’re strong enough to live it.” And I have to remind myself that. When I’m having tough times, when I’m feeling insecure, I’m feeling inadequate in different spaces, in different rooms, I have to remind myself that, getting over your imposter syndrome through reminding yourself of you being great at what you do and just being capable of the work that’s in front of you, or overcoming the obstacle that’s in front of you. Would you say that that’s something that got easier as you spent more time as a designer? Or is it something that’s just, it’s the same monster every time and you just have to overcome it as it shows up?

Bianca Stacey:
I do think it’s gotten a lot easier. As I’ve worked in the space and as I’ve gotten to work on different Amazon properties, it’s definitely gotten easier. And I think that’s because I feel like I’m more grounded in my work than when I was just starting out as a designer. And then I look back and I say, okay, well, I’ve done all these different things in the space and this is the impact of all those designs that I’ve done, or this is the impact of launching those features. And then once I start reminding myself is when I’m like, okay, I’m internalizing something that I don’t need to be internalizing. So it’s just constantly managing yourself and putting yourself in check.

But I think the imposter syndrome really kicks in when I’m in the room presenting to certain members of leadership, like gurus that have been in the space for 20 plus years. Or when we’re doing demos to the S-Team because we’re trying to launch a product right now. And when I’m in those rooms, that’s when I feel it the most, because it can be intimidating to be the only Black woman in those rooms and to feel like you just got to be quiet and you just have to observe. And I stopped that. I stopped watering myself down years ago, and I stopped trying to make people feel comfortable around me years ago, if that makes sense?

Justin James Lopez:
It makes a lot of sense. I feel where that’s coming from. And you know what, this question popped up, and I’m just going to ask, do you think it would be more or less stressful if there were Black leaders in that room that you didn’t know?

Bianca Stacey:
I find that is less stressful.

Justin James Lopez:
Less stressful?

Bianca Stacey:
Mm-hmm, I find that is less stressful. I can’t really pinpoint why, but I love getting to know people and new people. And that’s actually part of a designer’s job is understanding people, how they speak, how they think. And I just feel like that’s exciting for me to see a Black leader that I don’t know, and just the chance to talk to them and pick their brain or their chance to talk to them and learn about their experience, how they got there, where they came from, their struggles, especially if the leader did not have a straight line into that leadership role, and maybe their path went in so many different directions. That’s super interesting to me.

Justin James Lopez:
So there’s still that connective tissue that shows you, okay, this wasn’t a clean cut for this person. This person worked their way through. And it almost creates that humanizing effect that says, well, it’s a little bit less pressure for me as well?

Bianca Stacey:
Exactly.

Justin James Lopez:
To use an anime reference. I’m just in a different arc. I’m just in a different arc. At least that’s the way I think about it. When I see leaders, Black leaders or just Black, brown leaders, I go, you know what? Now I can take a breath because I feel like, oh yeah, they’re in the Wano Arc, that’s where they’re right now. Is that what it is for you?

Bianca Stacey:
Yeah. And also, that they started where I started and they’re still on their journey and they’re still growing the same way I’m growing, and they don’t know everything, just like I don’t know everything. So that’s comforting because they’re human beings just like the rest of us. It’s not like they’re a different level of demigod or something like that.

Justin James Lopez:
Yeah, for sure. No, for sure, for sure.

Bianca Stacey:
They’re just humans. And a lot of what I find is those leaders are so happy to see another black face in the room and they want to talk to you, and that’s great. Pass it down. Pass me all the tools and the resources and the advice that you can give for navigating this world.

Justin James Lopez:
Yeah, this crazy world. So naturally, my follow-up question there is when it comes to passing it down, because while you consistently look up, you’re looking up and you’re wanting to see these leaders, you want to pick their brains, you want to gain inspiration from their journey. You’re working your way up too. What are the different ways that you pass it down to the people that are maybe looking up to you or ways that you would like for people to interact with you or learn from your journey?

Bianca Stacey:
Yeah, that’s a great question. I’m really passionate about helping designers, early career designers, get their footing in tech and to have a softer landing. And I’ve been mentoring for the past, I want to say three and a half years, designers that have just graduated from design school or designers that are pivoting into a new job from a different industry. And it’s been really rewarding for me to learn how these designers are navigating the job market or navigating the same things that I was navigating as the only Black woman on a team. I really do enjoy that. So I’ll frequently schedule calls or coffee.

Anywhere I can be of help to these designers because it’s hard when you’re first graduating, knowing where to start. And everyone wants to work for an Amazon or Google are one of the big companies. But oftentimes it’s so much better to not start there. It’s better to start where you can have more diverse projects where you can probably have a little bit more control over your own creativity, wear multiple hats so you can learn different job functions, not just a designer, but maybe you’re learning something about coding and languages. So I really do try to be a voice and an advocate for designers in the field of tech that are minorities, especially women new in their career, don’t know where to start or that need resources or that need me to put them in touch with someone if they’re pivoting into a role that maybe I can’t help them with. So I frequently do that, and it’s rewarding, and I’ve been consistently doing it for three years.

Justin James Lopez:
I think that’s beautiful. That’s something that I always like to close out with is how are we passing that back? Because one of the things that I find can be very difficult when it comes to growing is eventually we become that VP in that room. We become that director in that room. And if we’re so far away from everyone else that looks up to us, or the people that look like us, come from our spaces, come from our backgrounds, then that can actually add pressure sometimes because they tend to compare. And I do this a lot as well with some leaders that I don’t feel connected to is I compare my bloopers to their highlight room, because it’s hard for me to see them as human, as imperfect like me. And when that happens, it creates this added pressure almost.

So I always like to close out with thinking, well, how are we giving back? How are we connecting? How are we showing our imperfections as we grow so that people can still see us in that human way and being able to reach out to us? So it sounds like you’re doing quite a bit of that.

Bianca Stacey:
Yeah. I try to make sure that I’m coming off as approachable, that you know you can talk to me. I’ll give you the best advice that I can for your situation. I’ll pass your resume along. I’ll take a look at your portfolio. I’ll critique that for you. I’ll help you interview prep. So I really try to just give them the full package of you are supported. You are not alone in this journey. I’ve done this journey as well. You’ll be fine.

Justin James Lopez:
Yeah. I love that. Well, Bianca, thank you again for joining us on this episode. I think that there’s quite a bit that the listeners can learn from your journey and just learning more about you in general. But I wanted to just thank you for the time.

Bianca Stacey:
Yeah, it’s been great. Thank you for having me.